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1 days ago
Topic:
Length of Assessment

Rena22
Rena22
Posts: 1
Rena22
Rena22
Posts: 1
Topic: Length of Assessment
I was wondering how long does it take for an upper grade teacher to assess their students using F & P? I heard that it takes an average of 5 minutes per student. Is this accurate or does it take longer depending on the student? I'm referring to grades 3-6. Thank you!
edited by Rena22 on 10/13/2018
edited by Rena22 on 10/13/2018
2 days ago
Topic:
Instructional level question

Ollie
Ollie
Posts: 2
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant wrote:
Sue R. wrote:
When administering a formal running record using the BAS is there ever a time you would not go to the highest instructional level?


Fountas and Pinnell state, in the Benchmark Assessment Guide, page 16: By the end of the assessment you should have three levels: (1) the highest level read independently, (2) the highest level read instructionally, and (3) the level that is too difficult for the child (hard text). Then you can make a decision about the recommended placement level—the best level for instructional reading.

Some districts place a ‘CAP’ on levels, stopping the assessment one year beyond the reader’s grade level. This would be due to maturity and age appropriate text. This may not be a ‘one size fits all’ but most kids need more, not higher. The Literacy Continuum needs to be the ‘go to’ source when pursuing depth of understanding, creating connections and making comparisons as well as understanding all genre at that level. While a particular text at a high level may be appropriate due to the reader’s ability to decode and somewhat understand, it doesn’t mean the text is a good choice for them. I would suggest you refer to the F&P Literacy Continuum. It will give guidance regarding the goals for proficient reading at each text level as well as the text features and characteristics that should be covered.

Going higher is not always the answer. Going broader is the challenge. That challenge is met through understanding and using the Literacy Continuum.

We wish you success,
2 days ago
Topic:
Instructional level question

Ollie
Ollie
Posts: 2
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant wrote:
Sue R. wrote:
When administering a formal running record using the BAS is there ever a time you would not go to the highest instructional level?


Fountas and Pinnell state, in the Benchmark Assessment Guide, page 16: By the end of the assessment you should have three levels: (1) the highest level read independently, (2) the highest level read instructionally, and (3) the level that is too difficult for the child (hard text). Then you can make a decision about the recommended placement level—the best level for instructional reading.

Some districts place a ‘CAP’ on levels, stopping the assessment one year beyond the reader’s grade level. This would be due to maturity and age appropriate text. This may not be a ‘one size fits all’ but most kids need more, not higher. The Literacy Continuum needs to be the ‘go to’ source when pursuing depth of understanding, creating connections and making comparisons as well as understanding all genre at that level. While a particular text at a high level may be appropriate due to the reader’s ability to decode and somewhat understand, it doesn’t mean the text is a good choice for them. I would suggest you refer to the F&P Literacy Continuum. It will give guidance regarding the goals for proficient reading at each text level as well as the text features and characteristics that should be covered.

Going higher is not always the answer. Going broader is the challenge. That challenge is met through understanding and using the Literacy Continuum.

We wish you success,
3 days ago
Topic:
Beginning!

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
Tiffotter wrote:
Thank you for the reply, it helped a lot. I think I have a good idea of how to get started with assessing the kids next week. Teachers in grade K-3 are giving me a list of their struggling readers.Once assessed, please tell me which LLI kit I should be using. I have green and blue. I have the green all set up and ready. I'm not understanding why I have the blue kit since the levels overlap. I've been told that even the 3rd graders I will have are very behind, probably a year or so. Please advise as to which grade levels will have the most success with each LLI system. In addition, I will have kindergarten students, I would love any suggestions for them as well. Many of them have never been to school until K.
Thanks in advance!



Although the text features and required strategic actions for processing text remain the same at a level C in the Green System or the Blue System, there is a difference. The Green System is designed for first grades using developmentally and age appropriate themes, topics and ideas. The Blue System is designed to engage and captivate second graders. If a second grader needs to be placed in a level A or B, you will need to use the Green System for those levels and then move into the Blue System for level C due to age appropriate and developmentally appropriate subjects which will help keep your readers’ interest.

The Orange System is used with Kindergarten and includes more lessons at each level. It includes 20 lessons per level with age appropriate topics. Since these readers have had less exposure to literacy, more time is required to notice teach and support processing behaviors. Fountas and Pinnell recommend that kindergarteners be assessed by the fourth month of school. You can assess early literacy behaviors prior to that time and support the lowest students with shared reading and interactive writing. Take a look at the Literacy Continuum for Kindergarten (provided with the BAS) to determine your teaching goals for developing early literacy behaviors.

I hope this helps,
3 days ago
Topic:
Word Study as Intervention?

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
FPUser29392 wrote:
Could the Phonics Lessons or Word Study Lessons be used as a small group pull-out intervention instead of being used with the whole group?


The Phonics lessons or Word Study Lessons can be used with either a small or a whole group of students. It is not designed as an intervention, but can be used to address the identified needs of your students. The FPL Classroom system guide states: “The phonics lessons are designed so that, as you use them, you will always consider the particular children you teach. You will decide which lessons to use and whether or not to modify them to meet the needs of your particular students.... The phonics, spelling, and word study lessons in Fountas & Pinnell Classroom may be used with whole groups and individuals. Occasionally, based on your as- sessment, you may use a lesson with a small group.... [The system includes Informal and] More formal and systematic assessments [which] can be beneficial in pinpointing a child’s specific edge of understanding so that you can customize a lesson for one-on-one or small group use.”

The Leveled Literacy Systems are designed as an intervention. LLI provides a well-defined framework for lessons within which teachers make decisions specific to observations of the children’s needs. The lessons include reading texts, writing, and phon- ics. Leveled Literacy Intervention is a scientifically based system that is designed to prevent literacy difficulties rather than correct long-term failure. It has been highly successful in achieving its goal of cutting across the path of literacy failure and bringing chil- dren to grade-level performance in tens of thousands of schools.

We wish you the best in your decision making,
3 days ago
Topic:
Beginning!

Tiffotter
Tiffotter
Posts: 2
Tiffotter
Tiffotter
Posts: 2
Topic: Beginning!
Thank you for the reply, it helped a lot. I think I have a good idea of how to get started with assessing the kids next week. Teachers in grade K-3 are giving me a list of their struggling readers.Once assessed, please tell me which LLI kit I should be using. I have green and blue. I have the green all set up and ready. I'm not understanding why I have the blue kit since the levels overlap. I've been told that even the 3rd graders I will have are very behind, probably a year or so. Please advise as to which grade levels will have the most success with each LLI system. In addition, I will have kindergarten students, I would love any suggestions for them as well. Many of them have never been to school until K.
Thanks in advance!



Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant wrote:
Tiffotter wrote:
I just got hired as an Interventionist for K-3, handed brand new kits BAS1 and LLI Green (and we have blue if needed I believe). Where do I even begin?? I'm a veteran teacher. I am going to observe an interventionist tomorrow. I will meet with my K-3 teachers on Wednesday.


Use the BAS and LLI Guides! If the assessment is already completed, make sure you read page 1: Keys to a Successful Intervention Design in the LLI Guide before meeting with your teachers. Continue in Section 1 and 2. Peruse Section 3 and Section 4 for guidance on teaching using the LLI lessons and use the Online Videos to further support your training. You will have lots of questions. Go back and observe the Online Resource videos (in both BAS and LLI) whenever you have a question about how a component is supposed to look. Ask as often as needed. There are no wrong questions when working with struggling readers! The Frequently Asked Questions sections in both the BAS1 and the LLI Guides are also very helpful!!!

There are many suggestions given in each section of the LLI lesson that are very helpful in guiding your instruction. This allows you to pick and choose the best / most explicit teaching needed by your group of students. All components must be completed each day. One lesson per day!

Congratulations on being hired!!! Again.... ask if you have questions.

We wish you success!
edited by Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant on 10/9/2018
3 days ago
Topic:
Word Study as Intervention?

FPUser29392
FPUser29392
Posts: 6
Could the Phonics Lessons or Word Study Lessons be used as a small group pull-out intervention instead of being used with the whole group?
5 days ago
Topic:
LLI & Danielson

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
JMaher wrote:
We are using LLI for the first time this year in my district. We also use the Danielson Rubric for teacher evaluation. Student self-assessment is an important component of distinguished instruction according to the Danielson Rubric. What would student self-assessment look like within the context of LLI?


You might take a look at the goals for every lesson and the informal observation at the end of every lesson. These are the behaviors and strategic actions broken down into manageable pieces for each lesson - that your readers need to use to process text successfully at that level. The Literacy Continuum (listing all the behaviors for each level) is located at the end of each set of lessons in the Lesson Guide, for the level you are working on.

You will use a rubric for fluency and comprehension. Both of those will help determine what needs to be taught next and what students need to learn next. Teaching within the LLI lesson is very explicit based on the text gradient requirements and the student strengths and needs. You might take a look at the Administrator’s Tool: Fidelity of LLI Implementation (Primary) and (Intermediate) and the Guide for Noting and Observing Reading Behaviors in the Online Resources: General Resources tab: Record Keeping and Communication.

I do hope some of these help give you ideas!
5 days ago
Topic:
"Try That Again" and scoring

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant wrote:
Jillarton wrote:
In the administration guide, it states: When a reader is processing the text satisfactorily but gets mixed up and loses his place, ask him to start over at a good point and begin your coding again. Do not count this as an error.


Marie Clay's Observation Survey of Early Literacy Achievement for Reading Recovery tells us that if a teacher needs to use the prompt to "Try That Again" when a student gets mixed up, we count it as one error.


Could you explain this difference so we can clarify with teachers who are using both resources as a reference for their running and reading records?
edited by Jillarton on 10/9/2018


Great question! In almost every case that I found researching TTA in running records, it was recorded as one error. Although, I do not believe Fountas and Pinnell mention using the prompt or the symbol: TTA, when we read the two definitions, it can seem a bit confusing.

Fountas and Pinnell do state (as you indicated) that when the reader is processing satisfactorily but gets mixed up and loses his place, ask him to start over at a good point and begin your coding again. Do not count this as an error.

I believe F&P are referring to a reader who is reading the text with satisfactory accuracy but for some reason loses his place and most likely stops and does not go on. We would then simply have the child start back at a good point, begin coding again and not count it as an error since the reader had been reading satisfactorily.

Marie Clay states, “Sometimes the child gets into a state of confusion and it is necessary to extricate him. The most detached method of doing this is to say “Try That Again”, marking TTA on the record. This would not involve any teaching, but the teacher may indicate where the child should begin again. It is a good idea to put square brackets around the first set of muddled behavior, enter the TTA, remember to count that as one error only, and then begin a fresh record of the problem text.” (Marie Clay 2000)

The Marie Clay statement references a ‘confused’ state where it is necessary for the teacher to step in and ‘extricate’ the reader. Extricate means to free or release from entanglement. So the child has become confused and the reading sounds a bit muddled.

As I researched your question, in almost every case when TTA was used in Running Records, it was counted as an error but the examples always indicated a confused state. Here is one example: the child said, “She white with” and stopped. (The text was ‘Sue went with me’.) Although the child self-monitored she was in a confused state and did not know what to do next. The confusion was too great to give a Told for the last word in the text (me), because all meaning would be lost. So the teacher said, “TTA from here” and the child responded correctly, “Susan went with me.” In that instance the reading was muddled. The child stopped (confused) and the teacher directed the child to TTA observing to see if the child would be able to make it make sense by correcting more than one error. The reader had several confusions in the text. The teacher redirected to the point where the reading processing broke down.

I hope this helps.
5 days ago
Topic:
LLI & Danielson

JMaher
JMaher
Posts: 1
JMaher
JMaher
Posts: 1
Topic: LLI & Danielson
We are using LLI for the first time this year in my district. We also use the Danielson Rubric for teacher evaluation. Student self-assessment is an important component of distinguished instruction according to the Danielson Rubric. What would student self-assessment look like within the context of LLI?
5 days ago
Topic:
BAS 3rd edition - Comprehension?

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
JamieM wrote:
Thank you so much for your timely response. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly before I share with my staff.

So it's safe to say that this response on the resource video:


"First the horse went in. then the cow, duck, chicken, and then the cow, then the skunk, then everybody came out."

On the old assessment that could have gotten a 3 because that basically included all of key understandings list. Now, we are saying this is a 1. Is that correct? Also, only one loose prompt like, "Can you say more about that?"

Thank you!


Yes, this would be a limited response. Several key understandings are missed. You are only able to give the ‘tell me more about that’ one time per prompt. So... using the prompt: “Tell what happens in the story”.... and the child gave the response "First the horse went in. then the cow, duck, chicken, and then the cow, then the skunk, then everybody came out." You can say, “Tell me more about that” followed by the next prompt, which in this case is... “Is there anything else?”.

I would suggest you use the list of Behaviors to Notice, Teach and Support from Literacy Continuum to discuss why, at level D, we would expect a stronger response. And... how we might use our instruction to teach children how to think within, beyond and about the text.

Thank you for a great question. We wish you success in using edition 3.
5 days ago
Topic:
Beginning!

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
Tiffotter wrote:
I just got hired as an Interventionist for K-3, handed brand new kits BAS1 and LLI Green (and we have blue if needed I believe). Where do I even begin?? I'm a veteran teacher. I am going to observe an interventionist tomorrow. I will meet with my K-3 teachers on Wednesday.


Use the BAS and LLI Guides! If the assessment is already completed, make sure you read page 1: Keys to a Successful Intervention Design in the LLI Guide before meeting with your teachers. Continue in Section 1 and 2. Peruse Section 3 and Section 4 for guidance on teaching using the LLI lessons and use the Online Videos to further support your training. You will have lots of questions. Go back and observe the Online Resource videos (in both BAS and LLI) whenever you have a question about how a component is supposed to look. Ask as often as needed. There are no wrong questions when working with struggling readers! The Frequently Asked Questions sections in both the BAS1 and the LLI Guides are also very helpful!!!

There are many suggestions given in each section of the LLI lesson that are very helpful in guiding your instruction. This allows you to pick and choose the best / most explicit teaching needed by your group of students. All components must be completed each day. One lesson per day!

Congratulations on being hired!!! Again.... ask if you have questions.

We wish you success!
edited by Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant on 10/9/2018
5 days ago
Topic:
"Try That Again" and scoring

Jillarton
Jillarton
Posts: 6
In the administration guide, it states: When a reader is processing the text satisfactorily but gets mixed up and loses his place, ask him to start over at a good point and begin your coding again. Do not count this as an error.


Marie Clay's Observation Survey of Early Literacy Achievement for Reading Recovery tells us that if a teacher needs to use the prompt to "Try That Again" when a student gets mixed up, we count it as one error.


Could you explain this difference so we can clarify with teachers who are using both resources as a reference for their running and reading records?
edited by Jillarton on 10/9/2018
5 days ago
Topic:
BAS 3rd edition - Comprehension?

JamieM
JamieM
Posts: 2
Thank you so much for your timely response. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly before I share with my staff.

So it's safe to say that this response on the resource video:


"First the horse went in. then the cow, duck, chicken, and then the cow, then the skunk, then everybody came out."

On the old assessment that could have gotten a 3 because that basically included all of key understandings list. Now, we are saying this is a 1. Is that correct? Also, only one loose prompt like, "Can you say more about that?"

Thank you!
6 days ago
Topic:
Beginning!

Tiffotter
Tiffotter
Posts: 2
Tiffotter
Tiffotter
Posts: 2
Topic: Beginning!
I just got hired as an Interventionist for K-3, handed brand new kits BAS1 and LLI Green (and we have blue if needed I believe). Where do I even begin?? I'm a veteran teacher. I am going to observe an interventionist tomorrow. I will meet with my K-3 teachers on Wednesday.
6 days ago
Topic:
Guided Reading 2nd Edition Book

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
ToriKate wrote:
What page(s) in the Guided Reading 2nd edition book talk about NOT reporting the level the child is working at but to focus on the behaviors the child is working on? I want to share the information from this page with our group.


“The teacher who recognizes the convenience of the gradient yet reminds herself of its limitations will be able to make good choices and test her decisions against students’ behaviors while reading and talking about texts. Figure 13-2 sums up what a text gradient is and is not.”
Please see FIGURE 13-2 What Is a Text Gradient? Page 295 in Guided Reading Responsive Teaching Across the Grades for this information.
We Wish You Success
6 days ago
Topic:
Phonic Kit Assessments

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
415 Mission Hill Dr. wrote:
I would like to know if you plan to come up with some screening tools for dyslexia? The state of Indiana is recognizing it as a disability and is listing approved screeners on the website. I don't see anything listed from your phonics kit. i am disappointed that all your assessments have not changed. the phonological assessments and phonic assessments are too long and cumbersome to grade. i thought you were recommending the word journeys at one point a few years back, what happened to utilizing some of the assessments with word journeys?


Indiana appears to be mandating a list of indicators in the Universal Screener starting in 2019-20 to identify potential dyslexic students.

All of the indicators listed in the universal screener: i.e. the IDOE-approved screeners for dyslexia require adherence related to word or sub-word levels of reading. The BAS goes beyond this and includes the child’s comprehension and language development. BAS also includes an analysis of all areas used in reading with comprehension; meaning, language structure, and visual/phonological information (MSV). BAS includes the optional assessments for letter recognition, phonological assessments, letter-sound relationships, vocabulary assessments, writing or encoding tasks as listed. You are right. The assessments do require time to administer in order to get the necessary information.

Additional required screeners are currently being looked into.

Thank you for your question
6 days ago
Topic:
Guided Reading 2nd Edition Book

ToriKate
ToriKate
Posts: 9
What page(s) in the Guided Reading 2nd edition book talk about NOT reporting the level the child is working at but to focus on the behaviors the child is working on? I want to share the information from this page with our group.
6 days ago
Topic:
running record question

Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Helenann Steensen, Fountas & Pinnell Consultant
Posts: 590
nmsc wrote:
If a child reads a contraction as two separate words, does it count as a miscue? For example, child read don't as do not.


For contractions read incorrectly: for example the contraction (don’t) read as two words (do not) or two words (do not) read as one word (don’t) count as one error only. For further information you might refer to the chart: Coding Errors and Self-Corrections in Oral Reading, located in your system guide.

Best Wishes,
6 days ago
Topic:
running record question

nmsc
nmsc
Posts: 2
nmsc
nmsc
Posts: 2
Topic: running record question
If a child reads a contraction as two separate words, does it count as a miscue? For example, child read don't as do not.




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